Rory

Camping matresses? Pssht, only girls use them!

Anyway, sounds like you’re having fun. All the best!

Comment added at 17:01, August 27, 2005

Verity

I didn’t know you liked Adrian Plass, Matthew. It’s not that surprising really (that I didn’t know, that is).

Comment added at 17:36, August 27, 2005

Sheepie

It’s not that surprising that he likes Adrian Plass either, as it’s hilarious.

Comment added at 17:42, August 27, 2005

benji

Well, i can’t say i’ve read any of Adrian Plass’ work, can you suggest any that i should be reading; and dave, hilarious in what way? lol I’ve also never been to soul survivor, but yes, i have heard the donut sketch :D I was wondering what you really thought about sould survivor Matt, because you say its encouraging and a ‘spiritual high of the whole year’, and this is what i keep hearing from people… However, i’ve also heard from a substantial number of people that it’s becoming dangerously charismatic, what do you think about this?

Comment added at 10:26, August 29, 2005

Matthew

Hehe… well, as I mentioned in the disclaimer at the top, the narrator is only loosely based on me. In reality, the only bit based on me is the love of frisbee… I’ll talk more tomorrow in London (and probably at some point on here as well). Oh, and I’ll try and find some Adrian Plass to bring as well.

Comment added at 11:33, August 29, 2005

benji

oh of course, i’ll see you tomorrow! wow… i tried calling Nathan a minute ago about travelling arrangements but i’m not sure when he’s getting back from Nigeria (or maybe his phone just happened to be switched off :D) I might be getting a lift from a parental if all else fails, but preferably i will catch a train there – just need to know about what happens at the other end, if there is a driver in the group or one of Nathan’s parents who can collect me from the station :? See you tomorrow matt

Comment added at 12:35, August 29, 2005

benji

haha a very funny account of your day there! I can’t say i don’t have a problem with some of the phrases this singer makes… “Rest on us with your spirit” and “We long for your presence here!” I mean come on, is this guy a Christian at all!? And of course, like you say, i hope that first morning seminar bloke had some good talking underneath his story of praying for his mates and them becoming christian – which of course is brilliant, but still… It takes alot more than that ordinarily! Anyway, i never realised it was so much to do around music – perhaps this is why there are so many complaints of it being very charismatic; it is very easy for even an evangalist to become charismatic in the company of charismatics and music – raising hands in the air and looking up to the sky (where God lives so i’m told). We shall await the next installment to see how the car mystery pans out…

Comment added at 18:40, August 29, 2005

Sheepie

I take it by “evangelist” you meant “evangelical”…?

Comment added at 20:08, August 29, 2005

Matthew

Soul Survivor claims to be evangelical, and they certainly profess to hold to standard evangelical beliefs. I will make no comment. (There are such things as charismatic evangelicals – some evangelicals would be annoyed that they’ve adopted the label, though. Labels are so confusing. Wouldn’t it be great that if someone said they were a Christian you could accept they were, without any qualifiers?)

As to raising hands, more on that another time I think. My current plan is to finish this diary, then pick certain topics it raises for serious discussion later on.

Comment added at 20:14, August 29, 2005

benji

yup :) that sounds fine; like we’ve said i’ll see you tomorrow anyway!

Comment added at 20:25, August 29, 2005

Rory

What are you looking for in the car park?

“Wouldn’t it be great that if someone said they were a Christian you could accept they were, without any qualifiers?” The only religion I know of that you can do that in is the Baha’i Faith.

Comment added at 22:36, August 30, 2005

Sparticus

I’m thinking that judging Soul Survivor based on one half day is as bad as judging Soul Survivor on the basis of a week. I’m cynical and sarcastic about it, but I’ve just come back from my 16th festival, so I have my rights.

Also next time, e-mail me first.

Comment added at 23:24, August 30, 2005

Sparticus

Also, Soul Survivor is Evangelical. In certain places it’s even Conservative Evangelical (gosh!). Okay, I know that they get all charismatic-y in worship and say funny things, and this year was a particularly poor one for talks (I’m fairly certain a main speaker dropped out soon before), but their theology behind it all is generally quite good. And did you not hear J. John try and persuade everyone to read their bible more? With his whole, ‘just fifteen minutes a day’ thing?

Comment added at 23:27, August 30, 2005

Rory

“Recite ye the verses of God every morn and eventide.”

That one?

Comment added at 22:44, August 31, 2005

Matthew

Rory: I can also think of the Mormons, JWs and any number of cults about whom you could say the same thing. One thing the Baha’i have in common with them is that there aren’t that many of you: 8 million Baha’i at a generous estimate, 12 million Mormons as a underestimate for example. There’s apparently 2 billion Christians (though I doubt very much that the majority actually believe what the Bible teaches). The fact is that humans are messed up, and we can’t achieve unity this side of heaven. (I know you disagree, but that is what the Bible teaches.)

Sparticus: Sorry! I’d have emailed you if I’d known you were going but I’d stupidly assumed that you wouldn’t be going this year for some unknown reason (or I’d just forgotten that you could be).

I did hear J John’s talk and thought that bits were very positive, and I sincerely hope that people do what he says on that matter. As of yet I’m trying to report on what went on, not my opinion of it – I’m deliberately writing using a far less critical narrator than I am, though I’ve thrown in bits of criticism in a sometimes exagerrated, always with humourous intent, form. It’s possible to poke fun at something without really having a problem with it, and I’m saving my real thoughts for articles later.

I know two days isn’t that long to formulate a full opinion, so I’m talking to my friends who have been many a time as well (and have been for three years). That said, being a newcomer sometimes gives you more of an insight into things than the old hands have, just because it’s all new and not something I’ve “grown up with” if you like.

We can have the theological arguments later :)

Comment added at 12:06, September 1, 2005

Rory

The Mormons have plenty of schisms and divisions: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Strangites, the Church of Christ – all claiming to be Mormon but all teaching different things.

JWs are simply a rather twisted sect of Christianity.

The Baha’i Faith, I maintain, is the only world religion without any schisms or significant splinter groups. Only 5-8 million believers, you’re right – but we’ve only had about 150 years, whereas there has been 2000 years since Christ was on this earth. The Guiness book of records says that the Baha’i faith is the world’s fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage growth).

You’re right, the bible does hint that men and women are equal – but does it say it explicitly? No. Once again, the only major world religion to explicitly teach the equality of man and woman is the Baha’i faith. I have yet to find any Christian interpretations of the bible that claim man and woman’s fundamental equality that predate the Baha’i faith.

Oh, and one other thing: define “heaven”. If there is to be heaven on earth, as the bible says, then surely there can be unity on earth? I have yet to find any Christian passage that directly contradicts Baha’i teachings.

Oh, I also had something really funny to tell you about the birthday card you sent me, but I’ve forgotten it. Bah, ducks.

Comment added at 14:57, September 1, 2005

Matthew

*sigh* It’s like talking to a brick wall sometimes. Have you read theology books by the Reformers and other pre-Baha’i theologians? Have you even read theology books post-Baha’i by those who have never heard of it? Did you even read the first two Bible verses which are pretty clear in their intention?

You may well be right to say it’s the only religion without any scisms, but I’m personally quite glad not to belong to a religion at all. Religions are from man, not God. They’re us trying to get right with God on our own.

As to the Mormons, I’d forgotten about the splits – I know mainly their history in the Joseph Smith/Brigham Young days and had forgotten. And when does a group stop being a sect within another group? With the JWs their beliefs are about as Christian as the Mormons’ teaching.

Incidently, Revelation 21 doesn’t say anything about heaven being on earth, and I know of no other passage that makes reference to it. In fact, it explicitly mentions a new earth – but I can’t remember what the original Greek was in that passage, I gave my book of systematic theology to a friend reading theology at Cambridge.

Comment added at 18:04, September 1, 2005

Matthew

Wait – I’m confused. The verses come from another entry entirely. This is completely unrelated to the entry! I need to set up a forum again…

Comment added at 18:06, September 1, 2005

Sheepie

And if it’s anything like Shattered Vision was then it will be perfectly acceptable (and generally expected) to go completely off-topic…

Comment added at 22:08, September 1, 2005

Rory

I brought the equality of men and women debate over here so we could have all the debates in one big place. (Well, actually, it was accidental, but it worked out pretty well don’t ya think?)

Matthew, I’m sorry I seem like a brick wall. You will perhaps know how I feel sometimes, when people don’t understand you. Perhaps I use too many subtleties in my writing. Or perhaps not enough.

Anyway – I was saying the fundamental equality of man and woman. Which you’re right, many post-Baha’i scholars to allude to. And indeed, I doubt many of them had heard of the Baha’i faith. But the Power of God does not spread through word alone. To quote Baha’u’llah:

“A new life is, in this age, stirring within all the peoples of the earth; and yet none hath discovered its cause or perceived its motive.”

“The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System — the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.”

My point is, this is a very exciting and spiritually powerful time in the world’s history, and many ideas and spiritual energies are throwing themselves around. Is it just a coincidence that the very things that the Baha’i faith stands for – equality of men and women, equality of the races, the abolition of war, the fundamental oneness of humankind, universal education, the elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, world unity, the end to all prejudice – things that were so oppressed and stopped in the past, if anyone dared to bring it up; is it just a coincidence that all these ideals have become “in vogue” in the last 150 years? I don’t think I’ve explained myself adequately, but you get my point.

You’re happy not be belong to a religion? I thought you were an Evangelical Christian? However, you do have a point. But here we’re using different definitions of “religion”. Using your interpretation of the word, I agree with you. They’re man-made things, often totally separate from the original true message from God, sometimes at odds with the teachings of the Dispensation. I presume you agree. Then it would follow, yes, to only adhere to the sacred writings of the Manifestation – in your case, Jesus, and in my case, Baha’u’llah (the fact that Baha’u’llah and the Báb are the only Manifestations so far to actually put pen to paper is a moot point right now). And the Baha’i institutions that exist now are the direct result of Baha’u’llah’s teachings, set up exactly as He had planned and overseen by people of His choosing. The Baha’i Faith actually has inbuild mechanisms to make schism impossible – the Covenant of Baha’u’llah. No other previous faith has this, and that is why they have all eventually fallen under the inevitable influence of imperfect human stylings.

I would say that the JW beliefs are no different from many other hardline conservative Christian views. And as for the Catholic beliefs…

As for “heaven on earth”… I’ll apologise in advance, all I have with me is the King James, so while it’s not as scholarly or as good as the NIV, it’ll have to make do for now. You’ll get the jist, which I suppose is what translation is all about. Revelation 21:1 “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.” Also Isaiah 65:17 “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” All of these have reference to the same thing, as it’s a prophecy. It is discussed in detail in 2 Peter, Chapter 3. I shall quote the whole thing here, up to verse 13, for ease of reference. Again, I apologise for only having the KJV at hand.

“3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” Now I’m no biblical scholar, I’m not going to try and explain all of this. I’m going to be ably assisted, however, by some more quotes.

Dr J.E. Esslemont, a fellow Scot, writes in Baha’u’llah and the New Era (just after illustrating the flurry of religious and scientific activity in the late 19th Century, which is still going on today): “What is the cause of this sudden awakening throughout the world? Bahá’ís believe that it is due to a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit through the Prophet Bahá’u’lláh, Who was born in Persia in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. Bahá’u’lláh taught that the Prophet, or “Manifestation of God,” is the Light-bringer of the spiritual world, as the sun is the light-bringer of the natural world. Just as the material sun shines over the earth and causes the growth and development of material organisms, so also, through the Divine Manifestation, the Sun of Truth shines upon the world of heart and soul, and educates the thoughts, morals and characters of men. And just as the rays of the natural sun have an influence which penetrates into the darkest and shadiest corners of the world, giving warmth and life even to creatures that have never seen the sun itself, so also, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit through the Manifestation of God influences the lives of all, and inspires receptive minds even in places and among peoples where the name of the Prophet is quite unknown. The advent of the Manifestation is like the coming of the Spring. It is a day of Resurrection in which the spiritually dead are raised to new life, in which the Reality of the Divine Religions is renewed and reestablished, in which appear “new heaves and a new earth.” But, in the world of nature, the Spring brings about not only the growth and awakening of new life but also the destruction and removal of the old and effete; for the same sun, that makes the flowers to spring and the trees to bud, causes also the decay and disintegration of what is dead and useless; it loosens the ice and melts the snow of winter, and sets free the flood and the storm that cleanse and purify the earth. So is it also in the spiritual world. The spiritual sunshine causes similar commotion and change. Thus the Day of Resurrection is also the Day of Judgment, in which corruptions and imitations of the truth and outworn ideas and customs are discarded and destroyed, in which the ice and snow of prejudice and superstition, which accumulated during the season of winter, are melted and transformed, and energies long frozen and pent up are released to flood and renovate the world.”

And again (here he is referring to Matthew 14:29-30, but the principle is the same): “In many cases the literal fulfillment of these prophecies in the outward sense would be absurd or impossible; for example, the moon being turned into blood or the stars falling upon the earth. The least of the visible stars is many thousand times larger than the earth, and were one to fall on the earth there would be no earth left for another to fall on! In other cases, however, there is a material as well as a spiritual fulfillment. For example, the Holy Land did literally become desert and desolate during many centuries, as foretold by the prophets, but already, in the Day of Resurrection, it is beginning to “rejoice and blossom as the rose,” as Isaiah foretold. Prosperous colonies are being started, the land is being irrigated and cultivated, and vineyards, olive groves and gardens are flourishing where half a century ago there was only sandy waste. Doubtless when men beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks, wildernesses and deserts in all parts of the world will be reclaimed; the scorching winds and sandstorms that blow from these deserts, and make life in their neighborhood well-nigh intolerable, will be things of the past; the climate of the whole earth will become milder and more equable; cities will no longer defile the air with smoke and poisonous fumes, and even in the outward, material sense there will be “new heavens and a new earth.”“

Shoghi Effendi states that: “Alluded to in the Kitáb-i-Íqán; the principal repository of that Law which the Prophet Isaiah had anticipated, and which the writer of the Apocalypse had described as the ‘new heaven’ and the ‘new earth,’ as ‘the Tabernacle of God,’ as the ‘Holy City,’ as the ‘Bride,’ the ‘New Jerusalem coming down from God,’ this ‘Most Holy Book,’ whose provisions must remain inviolate for no less than a thousand years, and whose system will embrace the entire planet, may well be regarded as the brightest emanation of the mind of Bahá’u’lláh, as the Mother Book or His Dispensation, and the Charter of His New World order.”

Also, “heaven on earth” is the same as “the kingdom of God on earth”, (that’s what “Thy kingdom come” in the Lord’s Prayer is all about). I would go on at more length about that, but it’s rather late, and I realise I’ve already taken a lot of your time anyway. And I don’t think I’ve made much sense. Gah, it’s too late for debate…

Comment added at 01:35, September 2, 2005

Becca

Wow that filled 3 and a bit pages in Ariel size 12 :s

Comment added at 16:22, September 2, 2005

Matthew

Mm, I think I’ll read it tomorrow, it’s quite late now…

Comment added at 22:44, September 2, 2005

Rory

Looking back at what I wrote, it was quite unfocussed… It was 1am after all… I’d intended to say more about some thing, and less about others, and overall be more clear. Meh… Tiredness is bad.

Comment added at 16:07, September 3, 2005

Hari

Rory, I know the worlds going to hell in a basket (so to speak) but if you want to show people the way then a few things are essential for a leader to practice 1/ensure others feel the love and know you are on their side and are not just contradicting them. The latter enduces a combat mode, not helpful. 2/ensure you dont get ahead too much (you become a scout not a leader) stay in view. 3/ passion is often seen as fanaticism by those who dont share your vision. Proffer a view and and cling to God not to “winning” a debate. As Abdu’l Baha said Bahais should “attract hearts not enforce minds”

Comment added at 16:42, March 24, 2006